Building a Speak-Up Culture

Mike Pinkus: Over the last 10 years at ConnectCPA, we've had the privilege of witnessing the incredible journeys of over a thousand businesses. We've been there for the thrilling highs and daunting lows of entrepreneurship. We've celebrated wild successes and monumental exits, and we've also stood by businesses as they've navigated the stormy seas facing roadblocks, and challenges that every entrepreneur encounters in their day-to-day grind.

Join us as we dive deep into the stories of these resilient individuals who dared to dream, who persevered, and who were a testament to the power of entrepreneurship. This is their journey, their lessons, and their triumphs.

Welcome to GrowthTales. I'm your host, Mike Pinkus, co-founder of ConnectCPA.

Mike Pinkus: Today's guest is Stephen Shedletzky, better known as Shed by his peers. Shed is a leadership and culture speaker, a coach, an advisor, an author, and of course, an entrepreneur. Speaking of being an author, Shed published a book called Speak-Up Culture, which centers around providing insights to leadership teams and executives that want to operate in a team and culture where people are engaged and willing to speak up.

Although Shed was quite humble in our chat, you can check out on Amazon that this book has an incredible 4.9 rating.

In the conversation with Shed, we discussed this two-by-two matrix to help understand why team members may or may not speak up. We also discussed the acronym FBI, which stands for Feeling, Behavior, Impact, and how to utilize it while having a very difficult conversation. And how, as a leader, your team is always listening to you, so you have to be very thoughtful in how you communicate with them.

I really enjoyed our conversation, and I hope you do as well.

Hey, Stephen, thanks so much for joining us on GrowthTales today.

Stephen Shedletzky: Thanks so much, Mike. Delight to be here with you.

Mike Pinkus: Uh, Steve, we've known each other, we've known each other a long time. And, and as you mentioned, like right before we jumped on the call, you go by Shed. We're gonna call you Shed because I think it's more natural. Yeah. Um, but, uh, we've never had anybody on that's published a book before, and I have a huge amount of respect for anybody that's written a book, because I can imagine it is a very, very difficult, long process involving editing.

And, and so I wanna just dive in and ask you the first question, which was, what is the motivation behind writing Speak-Up Culture?

Stephen Shedletzky: Thank you. And yes, I think you do need motivation, because for me, the hardest part of writing a book was the tediousness of going over the book again. Like, the number of times I leaned over to my wife during the evening saying, "I finished writing the book again," uh, because, like, you feel like you write it 17 times.

But yeah, I mean, this book was definitely, and is definitely, a labor of love, and it's semi, semi-autobiographical. So there are a couple of sort of pivotal moments in my life or experiences in my life and career that caused me to write this book.

One, growing up with a stutter. So I know intimately what it feels like to be voiceless—to have something to say, but to choose not to say it or feel as though, through either fear or physiologically, like I can't.

Um, I married a speech therapist—good choice. Uh, just not just for me, more so for my kids and nieces and nephews.

Stephen Shedletzky: Yeah. Um, and so, yeah, I mean, but the thing is, we don't need to have a speech impediment to feel voiceless. I think at any given point in time in a relationship, in our life or career, we've felt that.

Um, the other is being part—in my 20 or so year career—being parts of teams where there is a Speak-Up Culture. Mm-hmm. And how marvelous it is to the quality of those relationships, the results, creativity, innovation on those teams, and the health and well-being of the folks on those teams.

And then also seeing teams, due to a change in leadership, transform and become more of a shut-up culture or a culture of silence, and seeing how destructive that is—not just for the results of the business, but also for the health and well-being, um, and the quality of the relationships for the folks on those teams.

Mike Pinkus: Uh, that's so well said. And I, I guess a follow-up to that is, who do you think guides that Speak-Up Culture? Do you think it lives with the CEO, or do you think it goes through the whole leadership team depending on the size of the company?

Stephen Shedletzky: The answer to that question is yes. So, there's an equation that we came up with for culture in the book. And as a CPA, with a background, you might resonate with an equation here.

So the equation we've devised for culture is:

Culture = (Values × Behavior) ^ Influence

Culture is in the how—it's how we treat each other, it's how work gets done. It's the feeling, it's the behavior of a group of people who belong to the same organization or society, right?

The strength of a culture is determined by how clear are the values, right? Mm-hmm. And how clear are they in behavior.

So, you know, Enron had values—they were communication, respect, integrity, and excellence, which is just a joke.

Stephen Shedletzky: I mean, the fact that integrity was one of their values—but like, excellence. Do me a favor, Mike, more excellence for the rest of the day, please. And you're like, "Right on it." Like, excellence is a kind of meaningless value.

I'm a big believer in articulating values as verbs or action phrases. So to me, excellence could be do more of your best work. Ooh, now we're talking. That means I should know my strengths and amplify them. I should be aware of my weaknesses or limitations. I should safeguard against those. I should share those vulnerably with other members of my team.

Like, those are five behaviors underneath one value—because we put it into an action phrase. So I'm a big believer in defining values as verbs or action phrases. And then the strength of a culture is the degree to which those values are actually behaved.

Stephen Shedletzky: Now, to answer your question head-on, the last piece is all of it is raised to the power of influence.So the more influence one has in a culture, the more that individual's values and behaviors bear weight on the health of a culture.

You, as a co-founder, CEO—your behavior and values matter more on the health of a culture than someone who was hired in a junior role last week, unless you hand picked them and now they all of a sudden represent you.

So, um, the responsibility to create a Speak-Up Culture is at least 51% on senior leaders, but it's not 99. You know, anyone can choose to bring this to life. Anyone can choose to lead in their work and their relationships.

That's why I like to distinguish between capital "L" and lowercase "l" leaders. So capital "L" leaders have the title—we expect them to behave as such. But just because you have the title doesn't mean that you automatically get a hall pass and you're a leader. No. It's earned every moment and day through your behavior.

Do you behave in a way that's worth following? And we all know folks who don't have a hierarchy or don't have authority, but they behave in a way that is worth following—and they're a lowercase "l" leader.

Mike Pinkus: I wanna stick on formulas here for a second, because, 'cause like, I love the way, that's the...

Stephen Shedletzky: Only one that I know.

Mike Pinkus: And, and sorry for being a CPA and being a bit of a numbers nerd. So I love the way you explain that. Uh, another framework you—I've seen you speak about a lot is your two-by-two framework. And I think, I think the axes were impact and safety. Is that correct?

Stephen Shedletzky: Yes.

Mike Pinkus: So, so going back to formulas here, 'cause I—because my brain works this way, um, influence, like you said, if someone's junior, they have less influence. And so, obviously, so the power of influence means that you can have in an organization a few key people, but they're calling the shots for all these people when—and the voices aren't being heard of the whole organization.

Stephen Shedletzky: Mm-hmm.

Mike Pinkus: But then it goes—but then I guess my follow-up question is to this two-by-two framework. And I, and I would love to ask you to explain it, because why would someone choose not to let the leadership team know if there's holes in the company, things aren't going right, things that are influencing their customers, which ultimately impacts the leadership a whole lot.

Mike Pinkus: 'Cause it means that if customers aren't happy and the team is not happy, a business just goes in the wrong direction altogether. But, uh, I would like to ask you about this two-by-two frame, 'cause I think it's something that's very important—of safety and impact. I kind of understand what holds people back from doing it, but I'm just curious for my own sake: what are those things that are causing people to either hold back or things that they're saying—not saying—the most impactful ideas out of fear of the leadership team having a different direction or thinking differently than them?

Stephen Shedletzky: Yeah, so, so the two-by-two matrix that you referenced—so it's high safety, high impact. The opposite of safety is danger.

Mike Pinkus: Mm-hmm.

Stephen Shedletzky: And the opposite of impact is apathy. So ideally, you have that upper-right quadrant where it both feels safe and worth it to speak up. Now, feeling safe and worth it doesn't mean absence of fear, which is why I harp against this term: “Here's our fearless leader, Mike Pinkus.” Like, fearless? Really, that's the standard? Like, no, Mike’s got fears, of course. And if you don't have fears, there's something wrong with you, right? Like, to fear is to be human. Um, uh, if it weren't for fear, we wouldn't have courage, right? So, a speak-up culture is not about absence of fear—it's about feeling safe enough to move through the discomfort of fear and feeling that my speaking up or my doing something will actually yield a positive impact.

Stephen Shedletzky: Mm-hmm. So if you don't have safety or you don't have high impact, now you get to chip away at why people don't speak up. So, I've been parts of teams where I've felt where it isn't safe—in fact, it feels dangerous—and that it isn't worth it. In fact, I felt more apathetic or futile towards speaking up. You know, it's an unhappy marriage between danger and apathy. No fun.

Folks choose not to speak up because either they'll get punished—mm-hmm—nothing will happen, they'll get blamed for the problem. Um, and out of fear—like debilitating fear to the point that my taking the risk to speak up is going to harm me.

Mike Pinkus: Mm-hmm.

Stephen Shedletzky: Even if it could benefit the firm, because the risk feels insurmountable. I think I'm gonna get in trouble or get fired. I got a mortgage to pay, I got rent to pay, I gotta put food on the table.

That's the typical resistance. So then the worthwhile question is: how do you create an environment where folks do feel that it's safe enough and worth it to take that risk?

Um, the reason I did this two-by-two matrix is—the sort of previous conventional thought around a Speak Up culture was that you only needed psychological safety. But my experience of it is—Mike, let's say, you know, you and I are great buddies and we've been close for 20 years, and I feel safe in our relationship. And I know that there's something that you're doing that is getting in the way of your success, as an example. I feel safe to bring that up to you.

But if nothing happens, and then I bring it up again and nothing happens, and I bring it up again—like, how many times do I go back to a dry well before I'm like, "Eh, it's just not worth it," even if I feel safe?

So it's both this dynamic of: it feels safe to speak up and it feels worth it.

Mike Pinkus: And on the execution side of that, Stephen, I guess the challenge I guess business owners run into—and this is one I wanted to ask you prior to the call, like when we were just chatting—the thing I'm thinking about as a business owner, and I'm sure many people are thinking of, is it's a weird position to be in.

Being an employer—like the employer-employee relationship in general—lacks safety in the sense that someone holds the cards to be able to determine whether you're showing up each day to work. You do not want your team to feel that way, but you—unfortunately—it is reality that there's a legal contract and there's expectations and there's work-life balance. And the fear exists.

A lot of employees within companies don't realize the fear is a mutual fear.

Stephen Shedletzky: Mm.

Mike Pinkus: Meaning, as an employer, you're fearful of your team members leaving to competitors or being recruited away. And so I feel like everyone's living in this constant state of fear.

Do you think that companies have done a good enough job of drawing awareness to the fact that I don't think as leaders we're vulnerable enough to tell our teams what our fears are? And if we did, would that open up the gateway for a team to be more vocal about their ideas and things in spite of having fear?

Stephen Shedletzky: So, yes. So you're hitting on, you know—so how—well, the question of, well then, how do we create a Speak Up culture—mm-hmm—with this constant fear of, "Do I make a mistake that gets me fired?" Right? Or this constant fear from a business owner or a leader, "Do I show up in a way that causes someone to leave to a competitor, start their own competing firm?" Right? This goes on, right?

Of which, you know, the only thing that we need to focus on is our inputs, because there are certain things—certain outcomes—we have no control over. Just as if you're the coach of your kid's soccer team, if your kid's soccer team play abysmally, but they happen to get lucky and beat a team, you don't say, "Great work, team." You say, "We got lucky. We need to focus on our inputs."

Stephen Shedletzky: Right? Similarly, if the team plays amazing, but you happen to be outplayed and just lose, you can say, "We put in our max effort. I'm proud of that." Right? "Let's keep going. If we keep playing like that, we're gonna do as well as we possibly can. Keep doing these things." Right?

So I think in some respects, we have to divorce ourselves from the output—or the outcome, rather—mm-hmm—and only marry ourselves to the inputs.

But the way to create a Speak Up culture—it's a virtuous cycle between two actions: encourage people to speak up, and then reward them when they do. So, encourage to speak up is: your voice matters, I want to hear it, asking open-ended questions, silence.

My favorite story of encouragement is an aviation expert, a guy by the name of Ben Berman, who still flies for United to this day.

Stephen Shedletzky: Every time he flies, he says to his crew, "I've never flown a perfect flight, and today is no exception. I need to know what you see."

So, a way to encourage folks to speak up is for you, as a leader, to go first and admit that vulnerability. Now, the trick with vulnerability is—vulnerability is not sharing all the things with all the people all the time. That can be irresponsible, and oversharing, and not suitable for work, right?

Mike Pinkus: Mm-hmm.

Stephen Shedletzky: Um, vulnerability requires context.

Mike Pinkus: Mm-hmm.

Stephen Shedletzky: And vulnerability can—can be positively, uh, and even negatively—but vulnerability can be contagious, hopefully for the better.

So, for you as a leader, if you say, "Hey, we want to make ConnectCPA the best possible place to work. We make up no illusion that you will work here forever. We hope that you will. We hope that you will grow. Um, but we're going to invest in you as much as we can because we simply think it's the right thing to do, and we hope we earn your loyalty. Even if you move in-house somewhere else or move to a competitor, we still hope that you'll speak of us fondly." Right?

Um, that vulnerability can beget more openness and vulnerability from others as well.

On the reward piece—when someone goes, "All right, I'll take the bait, I'll step into the Speak Up ring, I'll open up the boxing ring, step in, the lights are on me, I'll say the thing, I'll share an idea, I'll give feedback, I'll share a concern, a disagreement, admit a mistake"—how does it go?

Um, and the biggest importance with reward is: how do you still reward folks when they bring up bad news or hard things to hear?

Mike Pinkus: Mm-hmm.

Stephen Shedletzky: Don't punish the messenger—reward the message, or at least reward the courage it takes to bring up that thing that they're sharing. Not to make things inconvenient—they're sharing, hopefully, to make things better.

Mike Pinkus: Yeah. That's—I think that's incredible advice. And do you think, generationally, it's harder today to implement that sort of culture?

And what I'm getting at is, I remember a time where I put on a suit and tie and went to work at PWC, and the idea of "speak up"—I mean, I was just like—I was just grateful. Like, I'm gonna clock in, I'm gonna work as hard as I possibly can. And I had the fear of life in me that, like, I just wanted to show up.

Um, times have changed a lot. There's a lot more opportunity for people today, and I think for the better. I mean, there's more optionality to all people, with technology, being able to work remotely, all these things.

Mike Pinkus: Mm-hmm.

Mike Pinkus: Do you think it's more difficult today to build a Speak Up culture, given that—I think work has changed generationally? Or maybe it's just in my head that it has.

Stephen Shedletzky: Um, I mean, I think it is always a challenge, but I think the younger folks and the younger generations of folks expect to be able to use their voice, expect to be heard—which can be radical, but can also be really valuable.

I think, you know, the key thing is: what are still the values and guidelines?

So when I think of a Speak Up culture, there's this sweet spot where—first of all—"Speak Up" is not an instruction. Speak Up is a culture. Um, we have to make it safe and worth it for folks to speak up.

But a Speak Up culture includes tact, decency, respect, emotional intelligence, situational awareness, right? What a Speak Up culture is not, is it's not sucking up, and it's not a hall pass to be a jerk.

Mike Pinkus: Mm-hmm.

Stephen Shedletzky: So, though you want to hear from folks, I think there's still a space to say: how do we conduct ourselves in a way that is still respectful, professional, whatever that might be? There's still room for values.

So it's around rewarding truth, but also rewarding folks doing it in a manner that is still respectful.

Um, I often think that we treat ourselves as automatic transmissions, when we really should treat ourselves as manual transmissions. 

Mike Pinkus: I love those days of having a manual car.

Stephen Shedletzky: Yeah. I love it too.

Mike Pinkus: Have you ever driven manual?

Stephen Shedletzky: I have. It's fantastic.

Mike Pinkus: It's—

Stephen Shedletzky: Hard—it's fantastic. So—but I think it relates to how we can show up and speak up. In an automatic transmission, it's park, drive, reverse.

Mike Pinkus: Mm-hmm.

Stephen Shedletzky: Right? Park is an oscillation between fight and flight—it's freeze. Drive is fight. And reverse is flight—get outta there. But if we go into drive in a manual transmission, we have up to six speeds, maybe even more.

And so I think we need to figure out—okay, I do want to speak up, but how do I pick an appropriate time? Pick an appropriate tone of voice? What's the language that I use?

Like, there's still an art to speaking up in a way that you feel you will be heard, as opposed to just, "I'm putting the car in drive and I'm saying the thing." Like, no—how do you speak up in a way that you feel will be received?

Mike Pinkus: I love what you just said about sucking up, because—I wasn't gonna say it, but I'm thinking it—and I love that you actually just addressed it right away, where there's gotta be authenticity, right, to this.

Meaning, like, if you give your team free reign to speak up, it's like, "Oh, it's participation time." But that's not what this is about, right?

No, it's about getting to the core of becoming a better company. I love that you brought that up and just put it at the forefront—that a Speak Up culture...

Like, I guess what I'm trying to understand is—the Speak Up culture is not just literally speaking up. It's being authentic and speaking about the things that need to be heard. Right?

Stephen Shedletzky: Totally. So, it's about leaders encouraging and rewarding—asking open-ended questions, creating silence, like creating the stage and opportunity for folks to step in and share.

Mike Pinkus: Mm-hmm.

Stephen Shedletzky: Going first if you need to. But this spectrum of, "Oh, Mike says he wants a Speak Up culture, I'll just speak up about all the things all the time"—the response there, the coaching or feedback is, "I'm so glad you feel comfortable using your voice. But the strength of our Speak Up culture as an organization is not only hearing from you."

Mike Pinkus: Mm-hmm.

Stephen Shedletzky: "We have to create the condition where we hear from a diverse set of voices." So, instead of speaking up all the time, pave the way for others to speak up. In fact, here are three coins. You can spend them on our team meetings next week, but once you reach three—you’ve gotta zip it.

Mike Pinkus: Right.

Stephen Shedletzky: So that's on one side—if you're only hearing from the same people about the same things all the time...

Mike Pinkus: Mm-hmm.

Stephen Shedletzky: That's not a Speak Up culture.

Mike Pinkus: Mm-hmm.

Stephen Shedletzky: On the other end—this is not a hall pass to be a jerk. So, though we say, "Yes, we want you to bring your authentic self to work"—if your authentic self happens to be a jerk or an asshole...

Mike Pinkus: Mm-hmm.

Stephen Shedletzky: You still gotta own that, right? So, though there might be validity in what you're sharing, the feedback to someone if they show up as a jerk—whether they are aware of it or not—is: "Thank you for raising that. There's validity in what you're sharing. We do need to speak about how you spoke about it and the impact of that behavior."

So, you can still provide feedback and coaching on the behavior and impact—but reward the intent.

Mike Pinkus: And Stephen, you've worked with a lot of companies—both workshops, speaking engagements—obviously you're an expert at a level that you've published a book on the topic. I wanted to ask you: what are the common things you are seeing when you go into companies?

What are the attributes of the best leadership teams you see? Like, not just the culture of the whole team—I'm curious about—you’re speaking to a lot of leadership teams. What would you say are some of the—like, what do the best ones do that the other ones don't?

Stephen Shedletzky: I think the number one thing is that organizations that truly—or teams that truly—have a Speak Up culture is they're willing to overcome nice and move into kind.

And what I mean by that is, oftentimes you have teams or organizations where there's a good culture, but it isn't great. And what separates good from great is the willingness to have the hard conversation—the willingness to respectfully and tactfully disagree.

Like, one of the myths of the Speak Up culture is that everyone gets along about all the things all the time. And it's like—no. The strength of a Speak Up culture is: do we debate and disagree well?

Mike Pinkus: Mm-hmm.

Stephen Shedletzky: And when I've worked with teams and I've seen team members go, "Hey, pause there—can you say that again? I misunderstood you." Or, "Can you unpack that point, 'cause I don't know if I agree with you?"—and there’s healthy, respectful debate, but we're not attacking people, we're attacking ideas.

Mike Pinkus: Mm-hmm.

Stephen Shedletzky: That, I think, is the number one attribute: the humility and the courage to have open, hard dialogue, and commit to getting—to take from Stephen Colbert—the "truethiest" of truths.

Mike Pinkus: That's incredible. 'Cause when you hear Speak Up culture without getting the context—and this is why I think it's important that people read your book—without getting the context, you might make an assumption that it's like, participation, say what's on your mind.

But I—I dunno if you're familiar with Ray Dalio. He speaks about "radical transparency."

Stephen Shedletzky: Yeah.

Mike Pinkus: He keeps coining that phrase: radical transparency. The reason why I think he uses the word radical is what you just alluded to—which is, and I think what you're getting at with Speak Up culture—well, at least my interpretation of what I'm hearing is, you do want people to not just speak up.

But like those quadrants you spoke about—there are risks, there's fears, there's all these things that are combined and they're nuanced. But you—in spite of that—you still have to have the most difficult conversations within companies.

Mike Pinkus: It isn't just participation. And I feel like—at least for myself—I do struggle with that within our company.

Stephen Shedletzky: Mm-hmm.

Mike Pinkus: How do you get—because they're people of emotions—even as a leader, you never want to hurt someone's feelings, but you always want to drive the company forward.

Meaning, when you have a difficult conversation, it's out of love—but it's still difficult. Do you find that it's as difficult to get the leadership team to be able to speak up about these complex, controversial topics as it is to get the rest of the team?

'Cause you brought up, like, your formula—level of influence. I'm sure leaders are a huge part of this problem, meaning that they don't want to speak up out of fear that they're gonna hurt people's feelings. They don't want people leaving the company.

How do you address that when you go into these companies? So, the companies that don't have those attributes—how do you address that?

Stephen Shedletzky: Well, so I think you were speaking about the value of feedback.

Mike Pinkus: Mm-hmm.

Stephen Shedletzky: So, you know—the purpose of feedback is in the first four letters: feed. It’s not called knockdown-back.

Mike Pinkus: Mm-hmm.

Stephen Shedletzky: The purpose of feedback is to help one another grow. But not all feedback is created equal. So, you know—feedback, it's a low bar. If feedback is "Great job today," well, that's meaningless feedback.

What did I do to earn such accolades, and how can I repeat that behavior to earn it again?

Similarly, saying to someone, "You're lazy," or "You're irresponsible"—that's not good feedback either.

So, I write about this in—I think—Chapter Nine: Feedback is a Dish Best Shared. So there's an equation—here’s another equation or formula—

Mike Pinkus: Love it.

Stephen Shedletzky: For feedback called FBI: Feeling–Behavior–Impact. And it can transform feedback from being shallow or triggering to actually meaningful and impactful—and create changes in behavior.

Stephen Shedletzky: So, um—feeling—I could transform “great work” into something better. So, feeling: “I feel so supported and enthusiastic.”

Behavior: “Mike, when you did research on the two-by-two framework and you evidently dug into the concepts of my book—thank you.”

The impact is: “I'm in. Anything you want to collaborate on, let’s do it.”

That’s way better than, “Great job today,” you know?

Mike Pinkus: Mm-hmm.

Stephen Shedletzky: Similarly—I'm totally making this up—but let's say I'm late to three meetings last week. You could say to me:

"Hey Shed, I'm feeling disappointed because you were late to three meetings last week. The impact is, I'm not sure we can trust you with what's on your plate right now."

And then the kicker—especially with constructive feedback—is an open-ended question:

"What's going on? This isn't like you," right?

Stephen Shedletzky: And so I often find that if you are feeling fear—name it.

"Mike, I'm afraid to have this conversation, but I believe in you, and I believe in this team. I feel like the risk to have this conversation is worth it. Are you willing to go there? Are you ready?"

You know?

And then we have the hard conversation. But this funny thing about the human experience is—when we dip into the hard stuff, we tend to transcend above it. Or at least the right outcome happens. Maybe you have a hard conversation and realize that someone shouldn't be in this role or shouldn't be on this team.

But you can actually get to a place where you mutually decide on the best outcome forward.

Mike Pinkus: Yeah. That's an incredible framework. I love that you piece these things down to formulas because—and that's an easy one to remember. Every time that you go to give feedback and I’m nervous jumping into a one-on-one, I’m gonna be saying: FBI.

'Cause it's—yes, it’s easy to remember.

Stephen Shedletzky: And even, like—take it, write down FBI: Feeling, Behavior, Impact—and write it out yourself. Because there’s something really honest and vulnerable in that.

Like, I just did this yesterday. There’s someone on my team that I wanted to give feedback to, and I’m like, “Eh, do I? I’m not sure.” And so I wrote out FBI, and I got to the point where I’m like, “No, I don’t need to right now. This isn’t complete yet. I’m gonna let it play for a little bit more.”

Because when I write it out, I can really look at it and see: Am I being truthful and honest, or is something else up here?

Mike Pinkus: Yeah. I think that’s an incredible way to do it. And I should write more things down. I just struggle in my day-to-day. I'm always at a computer, and I should have a notepad right beside me and do—and write something along the way. Nice.

I wanted to ask you also, like—because there's so much impact to the book that you wrote, on top of the fact that there's reinforcement through speaking engagements and meeting with all these companies and taking them through workshops…

Have you thought—or has your company started—to measure before-and-after impacts within the organizations that you’ve touched? Either through workshops, leadership events, or even just feedback on companies and people that have read Speak Up Culture?

Are you measuring the data on how this is impacting companies and organizations? Or have you not started that path yet of measurement?

Stephen Shedletzky: Yeah, we're—so we're in the early stages of it.

Mike Pinkus: Mm-hmm.

Stephen Shedletzky: Two things: either leaning into assessments and engagement surveys that organizations are already doing, and highlighting certain metrics around:

Is it safe?

Is it worth it?

Am I encouraged?

Is it rewarded?

So, we are delving into either existing assessments and surveys they use, and also exploring and creating our own that we can use. You know, a good chunk of my work—I’ll spend 60 minutes with a team, I come and I do a conversation…

Mike Pinkus: Mm-hmm.

Stephen Shedletzky: I wish them well. But a good chunk of my work, I will do ongoing coaching and facilitation—

Mike Pinkus: Mm-hmm.

Stephen Shedletzky: —with a leadership team or across an organization. And when we're doing that longer-term work, there’s some really meaningful data that we can track. We're in the infant stages of doing that.

Mike Pinkus: I think it'd be so interesting to track. 'Cause I do think these things drive profit. And I think even if you looked at just customer retention, employee retention—like, some of these metrics—I would love to see the data on it.

And I bet there is a correlation between companies that have an actual, authentic Speak Up culture. But it's hard to measure. I do understand that. It’s hard.

Stephen Shedletzky: Yeah. But it's not impossible.

There’s one fun anecdote—because I think we can do it both with metrics as well as anecdotal feelings. I think it can be both.

So, there’s an organization I was engaged with—I think I did work with them for about three or four years. Early on in the process, I had a chance to go and deliver an all-hands keynote. And then two years later, I did an all-hands keynote again.

And after the keynote two years later, someone from the HR leadership team came up to me and said, “Do you feel that difference?”

And I went, “I’m… I don’t know what you’re talking about?”

She said, “I was in the audience two years ago. After your talk two years ago, people stayed, they had two drink tickets, they used them, then they left. They stayed in their fiefdoms.”

Mike Pinkus: Mm-hmm.

Stephen Shedletzky: “Like, there was no cross-pollination. And people left as quick as they could—hopefully with a blood alcohol content level that was low enough… but anyway, different conversation.”

She said, “Two years later, people are staying longer. They’re not drinking more, but there’s energy in the room. There’s cross-pollination. Fiefdoms have broken down. There are folks from different levels and different parts of the organization.”

She’s like, “This is the impact of all the work that we’ve been doing”—because I was doing workshops and Train-the-Trainer and other things.

So yes, we could measure it. But also—it’s a feeling. The difference between the energy and the cross-pollination after two years, which is good for innovation, good for business, and good for relationships.

So… it’s both.

Mike Pinkus: I think—yeah—it’s spot on. I think what you said is—it’s also a feeling, which I think is huge. Like, for sure.

Stephen Shedletzky: Mm-hmm.

Mike Pinkus: So, I know we’re running low on time here, so I wanted to ask you one more. And this final one is a bit of a two-parter.

You help a lot of businesses, but you're an entrepreneur yourself. And so, uh—you mentioned it’s almost autobiographical, like where you came up with the genesis of Speak Up Culture.

What impact over the next two to three years are you looking to make with your company?

And then well, I’ll let you answer that, and then I’ll ask the follow-up, ’cause I don’t want you to…

What impact are you looking to make over the next two to three years with the business?

Stephen Shedletzky: Yeah. So I shared with you before, Mike, that I sort of view myself as an accidental entrepreneur. You know, I've always been entrepreneurial—I never necessarily thought that I would open up my own business or organization.

I worked for many years on Simon Sinek’s team. I loved that work. I learned so much. And then—I never thought I'd write a book of my own. I always wanted to write my grandfather’s memoir, which I will. He has an amazing story that I’m going to capture.

Mike Pinkus: Mm-hmm.

Stephen Shedletzky: But my standard for writing my own book—I would go and give talks on Start With Why from Simon Sinek or The Infinite Game—

Mike Pinkus: Mm-hmm.

Stephen Shedletzky: —and I'd be asked, “Hey Shed, when are you going to write a book of your own?” And my response was always: If and when I ever come across something worth writing about. I don’t want to write a book just ’cause.

But I came across this Speak Up Culture phenomenon—make it safe, make it worth it—and that felt worth writing.

So, first and foremost—and this is what I so staunchly believed in when I was on Simon's team as well—is: we have to live what we preach from the inside out, right?

Just like you're a CPA firm—your books better be good.

Mike Pinkus: Mm-hmm. Course.

Stephen Shedletzky: If your own internal books aren't good, that’s a problem. But it’s not easy. You have to work at it. It’s the old saying: the cobbler’s child often doesn’t have shoes, right?

So first and foremost, the organization that I build—and that I’m responsible for building along with my team—we have to live what we preach from the inside out. And it’s not my decision if we are. I have a data point, but it’s not my decision. It has to be earned. And we have to receive feedback from the folks that we work with—both inside our team and our vendors and partners, including you.

And there’s nothing better than when our own vendors say, “Thank you so much for the investment of giving us feedback on how we can get better.” And likewise. It’s the best.

The other thing is—in two to three years—I’m in a business where right now, the majority of our income is me showing up live.

Mike Pinkus: Mm-hmm.

Stephen Shedletzky: The way we describe our business is: High touch, medium touch, low touch.

High touch is me showing up in person—keynotes, workshops, coaching.

Medium touch is me showing up, but in this format—pants are optional, don’t ask me to stand up.

Low touch, which takes a lot of effort, is: how do we build our own meaningful podcast, online courses, a book? What are the assets that we can create that can legitimately not just linearly scale—as you shared—but scale exponentially?

Mike Pinkus: Exponentially, yeah.

Stephen Shedletzky: Which is through technology or other means. So that’s something we’re working on.

Mike Pinkus: That’s great. And those two, three years are gonna fly by—believe me.

Final question—I know we’re over on time. Shed, I ask this to everybody:

Any advice you'd give to new, incoming entrepreneurs? ’Cause I know you mentioned you spent some time on Simon Sinek’s team—and obviously Start With Why is an incredibly impactful book. Our whole team read it when we were a younger company.

And you see millions of hits on Simon’s YouTube videos, and a lot of the messaging he’s shared is incredibly impactful. So I’m sure you’ve learned a lot, even before you started your business.

But if you can narrow it down to just one or two really quick lessons—anything that you can share?

Stephen Shedletzky: Yeah. I would say—especially as you're stepping into a leadership or founder role—I think a couple things.

First: know that your whisper is a shout and your tiptoes are stomps. Everyone is listening, and everyone is watching your moves. Your words bear weight.

The second is: the more senior you get, the further away you are at risk of getting from the truth. So the more senior you become, the more distance can grow between you and what’s really going on.

We share a good friend—Mike Kic.

Mike Pinkus: Yeah.

Stephen Shedletzky: When Kic and Kochi started their company, it was two, three friends, right? They were just Mike and Adam.

Mike Pinkus: Mm-hmm.

Stephen Shedletzky: But now they’ve got, what, 65–70 folks on their team? They're now “the co-founders.” I’m sure you’ve felt this experience as well—

Mike Pinkus: For sure.

Stephen Shedletzky: —as your firm has grown. And so, when you walk into a room—virtually or otherwise—people sit up straighter.

So, as a senior leader, especially as your firm grows, know that you need to work especially hard at hearing truth. Because we’re biologically wired to offer deference to those who are in control or in power.

And so we need to work especially hard, as senior leaders, to gain and hear truth—and to reward it when it comes, especially if it’s hard to hear.

Mike Pinkus: That’s incredible advice. You mentioned Michael—he was actually on the podcast just recently. And I’m sure his team’s gonna listen to this, and I’m sure our team is gonna listen to this one as well. And I hope they all both speak up.

Last thing—how can people get your book? Where should they contact you, Shed? What’s the best place to find you?

Stephen Shedletzky: Yes. I think, for the time being, I’m the only Stephen Shedletzky in the entire population of the human race. So all you handfuls of Shedletzkys out there—please choose your children’s names wisely.

If you Google me, you’ll find me in all the right places. I’m most active on LinkedIn.

Our website—you can either go to shedinspires.com  or speakupculture.com , and the book—you can get it through there or on all major retailers: Amazon, Indigo, all the places.

Mike Pinkus: Yeah, I think a lot of companies should start sharing the book with their teams and starting to adopt—'cause I think it’s more than just reading, but like adopting these things.

But Steve, I just want to thank you so much for joining and sharing these insights. And yeah, I’m really, really looking forward to seeing what happens with the company and Speak Up Culture over the next two to three years.

Stephen Shedletzky: Amazing. Thanks, Mike. A joy to join you. I hope this conversation helps all your listeners.

Mike Pinkus: Thanks so much.

Stephen Shedletzky: Cheers.

Mike Pinkus: That was Stephen Shedletzky, better known as Shed. Shed is a master of all things leadership, and he shared many important lessons during the podcast. However, there were two main takeaways that stood above the rest:

Number one: If you want both the trust and high impactfulness from your team, you have to provide them with the feeling of safety to speak up, and they have to feel like it is worth it. That doesn't mean you have to adopt every idea from your team, but it does mean they have to feel heard.

Number two: It is really important to lean into difficult conversations. Shed shared his formula, FBI, which stands for Feeling–Behavior–Impact. It provides a way to engage in difficult conversations while enhancing the chances of a positive outcome.

Shed noted that you can’t avoid difficult conversations, because whether they go well or not, they still end up creating clarity for both you and your team.

That's it for today. As always—keep scaling up and breaking barriers.